teaching jumping

sunhawk · 03-23-2006 11:48 AM

OK somewhere in here, you had some information on how you would get rider #2 in the first critique how to jump correctly. You talkied about x-rails in the roundpen, and using no hands, but I haven't been able to find that bit. I wanted to read it again.

Could you please tell me and others here that might be interested how to go about remaking our riding over jumps.

I am struggling with some bad habits. Sometimes the jumps go like silk, sometimes it's just awful! For some strange reason, I do better schooling green horses over their first jumps than I do on my seasoned eventer who can pack me when I screw up--who I trained in the first place!

My confidence in myself is messed up right now, so I don't have a good frame of mind when I go out on Lochie to school jumping. He's being so good, but I don't want to back him off.

OldSchool · 03-23-2006 02:20 PM

One very traditional method of developing a base for riding and jumping is to have a person lunge you while l you ride. I use a 20 meter or approximately 65 food circle. It is best if this is a fenced round pen, however with a steady well trained horse this is not absolutely necessary. The first step is to do walk, trot, canter in the saddle and in the irons, hands out stretched like wings. Next, work begins on transitions back and forth between the saddle and irons with grace and unity with the movement of the horse. An intermediate rider, for example, with competition experience should be able to ride continuously in the irons for a nearly unlimited number of revolutions of the circle, in all the gaits, and be able to rise from the seat to the irons without any disruption to the horse's balance or rhythm.

When the rider has achieved a safe level of ability in the saddle and the irons, and can make safe transitions between the two in every gait, a single ground pole is introduced. The rider then rides in the circle to the ground pole in the saddle, and rises up into the irons in the approach to the pole. Hands are still outstretched like wings. This ground pole is raised in slight increments until the rider is gently “rocked” by the motion of the horse and it goes over the raised pole. At this rocking phase the rider experiences being “ahead” and “behind” the motion of the horse. These become the rider’s brackets of motion, which he/she must use to find their center of balance over the pole/obstacle. (the cavalry schools used jumping lanes, not round pens, for this exercise because they could have a half dozen riders in a large lane at one time).

When the rider finds their center of balance in the irons, arms out stretched at the height that previously “rocked them, the height is moved up and the process is repeated. A reasonably good rider should be able to reach 2’6” in a relatively short time, if they have anything close to an independent balanced seat. If a rider is prone to leaning on the neck, gripping with the legs, leaning on knee rolls, etc., then it can take quite a while to establish an independent balanced seat over the pole.

It is important to note that the rider is not jumping but rather riding in this exercise. Riders who have no concept of a half seat and no established base, will often have trouble with even the first ground pole. However, I once had a student with no prior riding experience, except for some mule riding on his grandfather’s farm, who was a professional athlete on a major professional sports team in Philadelphia. After three lessons, he could accomplish this exercise in a canter at 3’. I mention this because this exercise requires athleticism, not form, not strength, not jumping training. It requires balance and timing, particularly with regard to a solid lower body, and a supple responsive upper body.

sunhawk · 03-27-2006 10:49 AM

Appologies, I haven't gotten around to working on your advice yet, my horse is great on the lunge line, and I have a round pen I could be using.

What I have done, is set a low grid line, one stride cross rail, oxer, vertical up to 2'6, and was working through that with my daughter on the ground.

What I found is, that I brace on my approach, lose the swing on my horses movement, I can feel my seat bump the back of the saddle a bit. Over the next two jumps, I'm over the center of my horse, balanced in the irons, and yes, I can let my hand feel the contact with the straight line, elbow, hand, to bit.

So I'm struggling with the approach, riding too defensively -- I have been on a lot of horses who will hiccup at take-off and land you on the neck -- my horse reacts to my jumping style by dropping legs, hitting rails which pisses him off, and sometimes he'll land with a buck.

I should have time tonight to throw a cross-rail in the round pen, or get Barb to lunge me and see what happens.

Thank you for your response.

Robin

OldSchool · 03-27-2006 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sunhawk@Mar 27 2006, 11:49 AM
What I have done, is set a low grid line, one stride cross rail, oxer, vertical up to 2'6, and was working through that with my daughter on the ground.

What I found is, that I brace on my approach, lose the swing on my horses movement, I can feel my seat bump the back of the saddle a bit. Over the next two jumps, I'm over the center of my horse, balanced in the irons, and yes, I can let my hand feel the contact with the straight line, elbow, hand, to bit.

So I'm struggling with the approach, riding too defensively -- I have been on a lot of horses who will hiccup at take-off and land you on the neck -- my horse reacts to my jumping style by dropping legs, hitting rails which pisses him off, and sometimes he'll land with a buck.

Quoted post

The oxer and the 2’6” height sound to aggressive for a start. Keep it simple. You want to set up rhythmic lanes or grids, and experience a gentle rocking sensation that supples you and the horse, not something that causes you to brace. It sounds like both you and the horse could use some gentle rhythmic rocking. It might help him to enjoy the experience more, and not, as you say, get pissed off and buck.

Technically it sounds like your bracing/stiffness is causing you to get behind. I recommend to students who get behind that they try to relax and see if the can get a little ahead in the next jump. I am looking for brackets, ahead and behind, in a rider. If you can establish relaxed jumps in a grid that are both ahead and behind, you are set to find the middle. The reality is that we are all a little ahead or behind in our jumping. The difference is in the degree, which is to say a better rider has a smaller range in their brackets. Do not try for perfection but rather work to stay relaxed in your personal bracket range. Then, and only then, you can decrease the range of your brackets. If you make it too difficult and struggle, you will brace and stiffen, and you may never become relaxed enough to reduce the distance between your ahead and behind brackets.

When I see impatience, I tell students that the Olympic trials are not next week. Start very small and make the goal rhythm at first, not height or difficulty. The real goal is how high can you go and maintain the gently unity of shared rhythm. If you start with too much difficulty then you will get the bracing, which sends you in the opposite direction you want to go. I have a saying, “slow is fast”, meaning if you take it slowly, you will get to the end goal faster. Why? Because you will not waste time fixing unnecessary setbacks. Good luck !

sunhawk · 03-30-2006 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OldSchool+Mar 27 2006, 10:36 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(OldSchool @ Mar 27 2006, 10:36 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-sunhawk@Mar 27 2006, 11:49 AM
What I have done, is set a low grid line, one stride cross rail, oxer, vertical up to 2'6, and was working through that with my daughter on the ground.*

What I found is, that I brace on my approach, lose the swing on my horses movement, I can feel my seat bump the back of the saddle a bit.* Over the next two jumps, I'm over the center of my horse, balanced in the irons, and yes, I can let my hand feel the contact with the straight line, elbow, hand, to bit.*

So I'm struggling with the approach, riding too defensively -- I have been on a lot of horses who will hiccup at take-off and land you on the neck -- my horse reacts to my jumping style by dropping legs, hitting rails which pisses him off, and sometimes he'll land with a buck.*

Quoted post

The oxer and the 2’6” height sound to aggressive for a start. Keep it simple. You want to set up rhythmic lanes or grids, and experience a gentle rocking sensation that supples you and the horse, not something that causes you to brace. It sounds like both you and the horse could use some gentle rhythmic rocking. It might help him to enjoy the experience more, and not, as you say, get pissed off and buck.

Technically it sounds like your bracing/stiffness is causing you to get behind. I recommend to students who get behind that they try to relax and see if the can get a little ahead in the next jump. I am looking for brackets, ahead and behind, in a rider. If you can establish relaxed jumps in a grid that are both ahead and behind, you are set to find the middle. The reality is that we are all a little ahead or behind in our jumping. The difference is in the degree, which is to say a better rider has a smaller range in their brackets. Do not try for perfection but rather work to stay relaxed in your personal bracket range. Then, and only then, you can decrease the range of your brackets. If you make it too difficult and struggle, you will brace and stiffen, and you may never become relaxed enough to reduce the distance between your ahead and behind brackets.

When I see impatience, I tell students that the Olympic trials are not next week. Start very small and make the goal rhythm at first, not height or difficulty. The real goal is how high can you go and maintain the gently unity of shared rhythm. If you start with too much difficulty then you will get the bracing, which sends you in the opposite direction you want to go. I have a saying, “slow is fast”, meaning if you take it slowly, you will get to the end goal faster. Why? Because you will not waste time fixing unnecessary setbacks. Good luck !

Quoted post

[/b][/quote]

I hadn't read your response--yesterday I set up canter poles at bounce distances, four in a row, and a 64 foot line with poles on the ground at both ends, and a row of trot poles, and I found that Lochinvar wasn't up to cantering softly across a pole--his response was to flatten and get quick, so we worked on that until he was cantering through in a steady five, and was nice through the bounce strides, and I found the feel you are talking about of being up in a soft two-point, and yes I did feel my feet back on the pegs so to speak, and it got very easy to put him in a good spot cantering in, and I was able to see that spot, or box on my approach, and his canter got a very nice balanced elastic feel to it. And I confess that I finished my session by trotting him to a single barrel on it's side, and he jumped it very nicely right across the middle, and my positon felt good over it.

Now I won't be able to get back on him for a week, as I am off on a shoeing trip for several days--no riding just lots of work.

OldSchool · 03-30-2006 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sunhawk@Mar 30 2006, 12:39 PM
yesterday I set up canter poles at bounce distances, four in a row, and a 64 foot line with poles on the ground at both ends, and a row of trot poles, and I found that Lochinvar wasn't up to cantering softly across a pole--his response was to flatten and get quick, so we worked on that until he was cantering through in a steady five, and was nice through the bounce strides, and I found the feel you are talking about of being up in a soft two-point, and yes I did feel my feet back on the pegs so to speak, and it got very easy to put him in a good spot cantering in, and I was able to see that spot, or box on my approach, and his canter got a very nice balanced elastic feel to it. And I confess that I finished my session by trotting him to a single barrel on it's side, and he jumped it very nicely right across the middle, and my positon felt good over it.

Now I won't be able to get back on him for a week, as I am off on a shoeing trip for several days--no riding just lots of work.

Quoted post

Sounds like unity to me. Very nice.

Before we get a "trend" going here about "feet back on the pegs" I want ot make it very clear that this is not for every rider. Most importantly it is not a form. You don't "put your legs there" in any sense of placement. The only image that I can easily explain this with is surfing. You don't really surf on water, but rather you have to "catch" the energy of the wave. Likewise, you do not place your feet, you catch the energy with them. If you cannot do this, or do not understand it, then wait until sometime in the future when it makes more sense to you before you try this technique.

I’m starting to have some regrets about brining it up.

I can see it could do more harm than good with many riders.

sunhawk · 04-11-2006 12:08 PM

Friday morning, Barb and I are heading for Kelowna--she is in the clinic with Peter Gray, and I will be working with Joy Collier for the three days. We will be doing some video taping, and since I am not very computer literate, I want to mail a copy of the video to you, and if you want to you may post footage on the forum and kritique my daughter and I to everyone's entertainment. I would look forward to it.

I wouldn't worry about the 'feet back on the pegs' thing with me. I have been riding for a lonnnnnnggggggg time, and if I develop any new bad habits, it would probably be a refreshing change from the ones I have had.

My biggest long term bad habit, is when things feel wrong at the fence I tend to drop back behind the horses motion. I usually slip my reins, but I react to the slightest hint that my horse might stick at a jump or stop--and I'm the worst in the spring when I've hardly jumped all winter.

I'm looking forward to working with my coach for three whole days instead of one day every few months or so, when I can fit in a trip, and truly looking forward to watching some of B. C.'s best working with Peter Gray. Sometimes just watching good riders is all I need! Then I go out and ride like I should. Usually after I go to an event, I come home riding really tight and effective, and the sloppiness is gone!!!

To any Mane Street readers, if you are at the clinic, ours is the big aluminum home built with living quarters. If's the trailers first trip out, no more tenting it!

sunhawk · 04-19-2006 12:18 PM

The Peter Gray clinic was interesting. His presentation was about getting the rider to approach fences in two different seats, which he called three-point and two-point. The three-point he wanted the riders upper body at the vertical, and was used for letting the horse know to collect and bring his balance back for tricky approaches such as down hill, or bounces, and for stadium, and two-point was to allow the horse to gallop forward for straight forward lines and spread fences.

Nothing new, some slightly different terminology. The instructor was very clear and very insistant on having the students implement the information and get it to work. He was adamant on giving the horse room to jump by having the upper body control the speed to the fence and staying off the horses mouth, and the necessity of having a calm focussed horse to be able to ride effectively cross-country. When students didn't listen, and continued with bad habits such as pulling and leaning forward on their approaches, his comments got very barbed and sarcastic, and I thought a couple of people might get mad and quit, but they persevered and got quite successful. He didn't stint on praise when the rider earned it.

He told one rider in the prelim group that her horse was too green for that level despite it's jumping ability and that he absolutely hated seeing horses brought up the levels too quickly, and she didn't return for the third day.

I was very glad that I didn't ride in the clinic but with my coach, Joy. We had a couple of very good days out on the cross-country where I jumped a variety of fences from green to prelim, some training combinations, and the water which I did badly--thinking all the time of how cold it would be------Joy is a wonderful coach, and challenges me just enough to make me feel good about what I did, without making me do stuff I don't feel ready for, which clinic coaches often do.....
My horse was very difficult at first, unruly, squealing, trying to bolt, but when I rode the way she wanted me to-----Lochinvar would drop his shoulder in the direction he wanted to bolt, so I would position his head back in front of his shoulder, which was a counter-bend when he wanted to bolt out of the circle, and a shoulder-in bend when he wanted to cut in, then leg-yield him over and soften until he made another move, then when he was soft present him to a fence. He tried to bolt to a fence one time, and I halted him on Joy's instructions in front of the fence. The next time I approached it, I half-halted, he responded, then jumped beautifully, and that was the beginning of having him beautifully ahead of my leg, responsive to my upperbody, and jumping everything he was presented to softly and very round. Then he enjoyed the experience, stopped worrying about being alone without his equine buddies, and was an absolute delight to ride.

tmsLauraM · 04-19-2006 12:38 PM

Wow, that sounds like you had a GREAT time, both watching and riding.

Thanks so much for typing out your experience. I enjoyed reading it!

sunhawk · 04-20-2006 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LauraM@Apr 19 2006, 09:38 AM
Wow, that sounds like you had a GREAT time, both watching and riding.

Thanks so much for typing out your experience. I enjoyed reading it!

Quoted post

Thanks for your response. I've been wanting to talk to you. I've enjoyed reading about some of your experiences.

It's been exciting watching this forum develop and keeping up with the discussions, and all the different opinions that come out. I really appreciate that there is a site like this where this can happen. Sometimes tempers get hot, but we become better horse people by considering and trying different things to find what works best.

04-19-2006 12:38 PM	#9
tmsLauraM Site Owner Join Date: Jul 16 2003 Location: In the beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia, USA Posts: 10,493	Wow, that sounds like you had a GREAT time, both watching and riding. Thanks so much for typing out your experience. I enjoyed reading it! __________________ ~Laura~ You can lead a horse to water...........and Jack Bauer can make him drink. DOROTHY-- But if you don't have a brain, how can you talk? SCARECROW--I don't know..........but a lot of people without any brains do a LOT of talking, don't they? DOROTHY-- Yes, I suppose you're right.

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03-23-2006 11:48 AM	#1
sunhawk Senior Member Join Date: Jan 02 2004 Location: grand forks, b. c. canada Posts: 851	OK somewhere in here, you had some information on how you would get rider #2 in the first critique how to jump correctly. You talkied about x-rails in the roundpen, and using no hands, but I haven't been able to find that bit. I wanted to read it again. Could you please tell me and others here that might be interested how to go about remaking our riding over jumps. I am struggling with some bad habits. Sometimes the jumps go like silk, sometimes it's just awful! For some strange reason, I do better schooling green horses over their first jumps than I do on my seasoned eventer who can pack me when I screw up--who I trained in the first place! My confidence in myself is messed up right now, so I don't have a good frame of mind when I go out on Lochie to school jumping. He's being so good, but I don't want to back him off.

03-23-2006 02:20 PM	#2
OldSchool Senior Member Join Date: Feb 25 2006 Location: Carlisle, PA USA Posts: 337	One very traditional method of developing a base for riding and jumping is to have a person lunge you while l you ride. I use a 20 meter or approximately 65 food circle. It is best if this is a fenced round pen, however with a steady well trained horse this is not absolutely necessary. The first step is to do walk, trot, canter in the saddle and in the irons, hands out stretched like wings. Next, work begins on transitions back and forth between the saddle and irons with grace and unity with the movement of the horse. An intermediate rider, for example, with competition experience should be able to ride continuously in the irons for a nearly unlimited number of revolutions of the circle, in all the gaits, and be able to rise from the seat to the irons *without* any disruption to the horse's balance or rhythm. When the rider has achieved a safe level of ability in the saddle and the irons, and can make safe transitions between the two in every gait, a single ground pole is introduced. The rider then rides in the circle to the ground pole in the saddle, and rises up into the irons in the approach to the pole. Hands are still outstretched like wings. This ground pole is raised in slight increments until the rider is gently “rocked” by the motion of the horse and it goes over the raised pole. At this rocking phase the rider experiences being “ahead” and “behind” the motion of the horse. These become the rider’s brackets of motion, which he/she must use to find their center of balance over the pole/obstacle. (the cavalry schools used jumping lanes, not round pens, for this exercise because they could have a half dozen riders in a large lane at one time). When the rider finds their center of balance in the irons, arms out stretched at the height that previously “rocked them, the height is moved up and the process is repeated. A reasonably good rider should be able to reach 2’6” in a relatively short time, if they have anything close to an independent balanced seat. If a rider is prone to leaning on the neck, gripping with the legs, leaning on knee rolls, etc., then it can take quite a while to establish an independent balanced seat over the pole. It is important to note that the rider is not jumping but rather riding in this exercise. Riders who have no concept of a half seat and no established base, will often have trouble with even the first ground pole. However, I once had a student with no prior riding experience, except for some mule riding on his grandfather’s farm, who was a professional athlete on a major professional sports team in Philadelphia. After three lessons, he could accomplish this exercise in a canter at 3’. I mention this because this exercise requires athleticism, not form, not strength, not jumping training. It requires balance and timing, particularly with regard to a solid lower body, and a supple responsive upper body.

03-27-2006 10:49 AM	#3
sunhawk Senior Member Join Date: Jan 02 2004 Location: grand forks, b. c. canada Posts: 851	Appologies, I haven't gotten around to working on your advice yet, my horse is great on the lunge line, and I have a round pen I could be using. What I have done, is set a low grid line, one stride cross rail, oxer, vertical up to 2'6, and was working through that with my daughter on the ground. What I found is, that I brace on my approach, lose the swing on my horses movement, I can feel my seat bump the back of the saddle a bit. Over the next two jumps, I'm over the center of my horse, balanced in the irons, and yes, I can let my hand feel the contact with the straight line, elbow, hand, to bit. So I'm struggling with the approach, riding too defensively -- I have been on a lot of horses who will hiccup at take-off and land you on the neck -- my horse reacts to my jumping style by dropping legs, hitting rails which pisses him off, and sometimes he'll land with a buck. I should have time tonight to throw a cross-rail in the round pen, or get Barb to lunge me and see what happens. Thank you for your response. Robin

04-11-2006 12:08 PM	#7
sunhawk Senior Member Join Date: Jan 02 2004 Location: grand forks, b. c. canada Posts: 851	Friday morning, Barb and I are heading for Kelowna--she is in the clinic with Peter Gray, and I will be working with Joy Collier for the three days. We will be doing some video taping, and since I am not very computer literate, I want to mail a copy of the video to you, and if you want to you may post footage on the forum and kritique my daughter and I to everyone's entertainment. I would look forward to it. I wouldn't worry about the 'feet back on the pegs' thing with me. I have been riding for a lonnnnnnggggggg time, and if I develop any new bad habits, it would probably be a refreshing change from the ones I have had. My biggest long term bad habit, is when things feel wrong at the fence I tend to drop back behind the horses motion. I usually slip my reins, but I react to the slightest hint that my horse might stick at a jump or stop--and I'm the worst in the spring when I've hardly jumped all winter. I'm looking forward to working with my coach for three whole days instead of one day every few months or so, when I can fit in a trip, and truly looking forward to watching some of B. C.'s best working with Peter Gray. Sometimes just watching good riders is all I need! Then I go out and ride like I should. Usually after I go to an event, I come home riding really tight and effective, and the sloppiness is gone!!! To any Mane Street readers, if you are at the clinic, ours is the big aluminum home built with living quarters. If's the trailers first trip out, no more tenting it!

04-19-2006 12:18 PM	#8
sunhawk Senior Member Join Date: Jan 02 2004 Location: grand forks, b. c. canada Posts: 851	The Peter Gray clinic was interesting. His presentation was about getting the rider to approach fences in two different seats, which he called three-point and two-point. The three-point he wanted the riders upper body at the vertical, and was used for letting the horse know to collect and bring his balance back for tricky approaches such as down hill, or bounces, and for stadium, and two-point was to allow the horse to gallop forward for straight forward lines and spread fences. Nothing new, some slightly different terminology. The instructor was very clear and very insistant on having the students implement the information and get it to work. He was adamant on giving the horse room to jump by having the upper body control the speed to the fence and staying off the horses mouth, and the necessity of having a calm focussed horse to be able to ride effectively cross-country. When students didn't listen, and continued with bad habits such as pulling and leaning forward on their approaches, his comments got very barbed and sarcastic, and I thought a couple of people might get mad and quit, but they persevered and got quite successful. He didn't stint on praise when the rider earned it. He told one rider in the prelim group that her horse was too green for that level despite it's jumping ability and that he absolutely hated seeing horses brought up the levels too quickly, and she didn't return for the third day. I was very glad that I didn't ride in the clinic but with my coach, Joy. We had a couple of very good days out on the cross-country where I jumped a variety of fences from green to prelim, some training combinations, and the water which I did badly--thinking all the time of how cold it would be------Joy is a wonderful coach, and challenges me just enough to make me feel good about what I did, without making me do stuff I don't feel ready for, which clinic coaches often do..... My horse was very difficult at first, unruly, squealing, trying to bolt, but when I rode the way she wanted me to-----Lochinvar would drop his shoulder in the direction he wanted to bolt, so I would position his head back in front of his shoulder, which was a counter-bend when he wanted to bolt out of the circle, and a shoulder-in bend when he wanted to cut in, then leg-yield him over and soften until he made another move, then when he was soft present him to a fence. He tried to bolt to a fence one time, and I halted him on Joy's instructions in front of the fence. The next time I approached it, I half-halted, he responded, then jumped beautifully, and that was the beginning of having him beautifully ahead of my leg, responsive to my upperbody, and jumping everything he was presented to softly and very round. Then he enjoyed the experience, stopped worrying about being alone without his equine buddies, and was an absolute delight to ride.

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