Effective Riding on Slopes

[OldSchool]

This topic didn't get many looks under Teaching, so I hought it was worth a second chance on its own.

Originally posted by Katia
Another topic of interest to me is the riders position when riding down hill.

This is what I learned to do:

[Picture of a rider riding with forward upper body position, riding down a slope]

When I observe riders who lean slightly back when riding down hill, their horses seem to be balanced too and managing the hill just fine. So do both positions work?

Of course when you would ride down a very steep slope where the horse is literally sliding down (a "Man from Snowy River kinda slope"), you'd lean back.

Caprilli, who’s innovations started what is now the Balanced Seat, would not give his students an answer to the question of what was the best position for descending slopes. Was it his Forward Seat or sitting upright and deep in the saddle, as was the standard method at the time.

The old method has a basis in biomechanics. It does help the horse to have the rider's weight over the hind. This adds to the horse’s ability to have “braking” traction down the slope, and it also helps a horse to lighten the forehand to permit the horse to step down the e slope with the fore legs while the hind legs are locked in a slide. I consider the reverse situation, where the fore legs are locked in a slide, and the hind legs are stepping down the slope, very dangerous. The horse can easily cartwheel forward in this situation.

There is a story about the last days of Caprilli’s life. He had a very serious fall from a horse and lay dying in his bed. His students surrounded him and they discussed riding to pass the time and make their friend and teacher comfortable. They were however concerned that he would pass and he would leave unanswered questions. Forward, or upright in the saddle was one such unanswered question. As the story goes, near the hour of his death he said, “Forward”.

I do not want to quibble with a master’s last words, but I will say the question deserves further analysis. I would divide descending slopes on a horse into three categories. (1) A slope that is gentle and where a slide in not possible. A slide is defined as when a horse locks up either a pair – front or hind - of legs, or all four legs, and slides down the slope on the locked legs. If a pair of legs is locked and sliding the other pair is stepping down the hill. (2) a steeper slope where a slide is possible if the rider is skilled in putting a horse into a controlled slide, but it is also possible for a horse to walk or trot down the slope.(3) a slope that is so steep that the only way to descend it is in a slide.

When looking at slopes with these three categories it is easier to select a forward or back position of the upper body. But before we do that I will tell a story about my instructor.

The military method was to be always in the forward position when descending a slope regardless of the grade of the slope. As a boy we would ride terrain each day under the supervision and leadership of our instructor. It was considered necessary to be able to descend any slope because in the military method the rider was expected to be able to go anywhere at any time. We began riding down simple slopes and grew to be able to slide down virtual cliffs (or so they seemed to a boy). At the top of a slope my instructor would give a description of the correct process and ask the question, “Why do we remain forward in the decent?” Riders would raise their hands and one would be permitted to give the correct answer that we had been taught, “Because we make a smaller target.” Then Mr. Gratwick would give a stern warning, “If you mistakenly begin your decent in the saddle over the hind, DO NOT SHIFT YOUR WEIGHT FORWARD during the decent. If you begin your decent forward in the saddle, DO NOT SHIFT YOUR WEIGHT TO THE HIND during the decent. This will destabilize your mount and you will fall to the bottom together.” With that, he would go to the brink, give the military hand signal “forward march”, and ride over the brink in the forward position leading his “troop”.

We were permitted to grab mane or hug the neck, and considering that this exercise predated the use of riding helmets, it now seems miraculous that no one was killed. What it does tell is that the instruction was first rate and that the military system of instruction was safe and incrementally controlled so that no rider was asked to do a task before he was trained and ready.

Having learned the forward method of descending a slope as a youth, I am versed in it and find it useful. However many years of training horses since has caused me to believe that it is best to use the forward method only when riding well trained horses. There are times when it is imperative to be forward in a decent regardless of the slope. For example, if an approach to a jump is at the very bottom of a steep slope or on the slope, the rider must jump off the slope. If he/she is not forward in this type of approach, it is near impossible to get forward for the take off, and usually the rider gets horribly behind in the jump as a result. Not long ago, perhaps 20 years, it was common to see a substantial vertical jump placed at the very bottom of a steep slope on a cross-country course. This type of jump was there to test a rider’s ability to ride forward down a slope and jump off the slope. I believe that as the number of military trained riders decreased these jumps were removed because the skill required was essentially lost.

In the three categories of slopes,

(1) A slope that is gentle and where a slide in not possible.
(2) A steeper slope where a slide is possible if the rider is skilled in putting a horse into a controlled slide, but it is also possible for a horse to walk or trot down the slope.
(3) A slope that is so steep that the only way to descend it is in a slide.

a rider, I now believe, must select the position for the decent based on their riding ability, their horse’s training and the task(s) that will confront them while descending, such as an obstacle on the slope. In (1) a typical Balance Seat with forward upper body inclination is a good rule. In (2), which is the most difficult because of the ambiguity present in the circumstance, it is best to be upright in the saddle if you and your horse are not excellent riders. To attempt the forward position in such circumstance and fail can have grave consequences. In (3) unless someone is shooting at you and you need to become a smaller target, I recommend the upright in the saddle position today because I believe it is safer. The rider’s weight over the hind adds control to the decent, and if the rider can keep the horse’s spine straight down the hill, the decent will usually go well. What I do not like about being forward in a steep decent is that the rider is unable in that position to make corrections in the horse's straightness during the decent. If a horse gets sideways on a steep slope, there is little he/she can do to prevent a possible fall before it happens. That is why a well-trained horse is required for use of the forward method down a steep slope. In any case always remember, “If you mistakenly begin your decent in the saddle over the hind, DO NOT SHIFT YOUR WEIGHT FORWARD during the decent. If you begin your decent forward in the saddle, DO NOT SHIFT YOUR WEIGHT TO THE HIND during the decent. This will destabilize your mount and you will fall to the bottom together.”

[Gallamist]

In any case always remember, “If you mistakenly begin your decent in the saddle over the hind, DO NOT SHIFT YOUR WEIGHT FORWARD during the decent. If you begin your decent forward in the saddle, DO NOT SHIFT YOUR WEIGHT TO THE HIND during the decent. This will destabilize your mount and you will fall to the bottom together.”

I agree with the above quote.

But if you start your decent in a forward motion if the horse tripped or stumbled wouldn't that put you as a rider on the ground alot quicker then if you rode that slope over the hind end?

I think if you were riding that slope and you were deep in the saddle on the hind end you would be better balanced IF the horse was to trip or stumble the rider would be able to keep there balance in the saddle alot better then if you were going down a slope in a forward position??

[tmsLauraM]

a rider, I now believe, must select the position for the decent based on their riding ability, their horse’s training and the task(s) that will confront them while descending, such as an obstacle on the slope. In (1) a typical Balance Seat with forward upper body inclination is a good rule. In (2), which is the most difficult because of the ambiguity present in the circumstance, it is best to be upright in the saddle if you and your horse are not excellent riders. To attempt the forward position in such circumstance and fail can have grave consequences. In (3) unless someone is shooting at you and you need to become a smaller target, I recommend the upright in the saddle position today because I believe it is safer. The rider’s weight over the hind adds control to the decent, and if the rider can keep the horse’s spine straight down the hill, the decent will usually go well. What I do not like about being forward in a steep decent is that the rider is unable in that position to make corrections in the horse's straightness during the decent. If a horse gets sideways on a steep slope, there is little he/she can do to prevent a possible fall before it happens

Like he said, it all depends on the slope and the abilities of horse and rider.

I nearly always go down gentle or even moderate shopes in the forward position, I simply feel safer and more in control that way.

[tmsStauffer]

i want some pictures!!!

I seen the one drawing that katia posted...and must say...i've never seen anyone go down a hill like that..lol

[Gallamist]

Guess it's a rider preference tho really.

I ALWAYS go downhill while sitting deep and further back in my saddle so my weight is on the hind end of my horse....I have gone down some pretty steep hills too riding though the mountains in BC....gone up some pretty steep ones too..heheh

[OldSchool]

Originally posted by Gallamist@Mar 12 2006, 02:14 AM
But if you start your decent in a forward motion if the horse tripped or stumbled wouldn't that put you as a rider on the ground alot quicker then if you rode that slope over the hind end?

Yes, it would. Therefore it is best to ride only well trained horses forward down a slope. Being upright in the saddle is more defensive and safer, as long as the rider is able to remain still or neutral in the saddle.

[natty threads]

There's a photo in one of my books. Captain C. Stoffel on Tonio.
Looking for it on-line. I think it's a standard pic for descents.

Do you have it to post?

[JennPen]

Originally posted by OldSchool@Mar 12 2006, 02:40 PM
Being upright in the saddle is more defensive and safer, as long as the rider is able to remain still or neutral in the saddle.

Quoted post

I was just thinking about riding down some steep hills when I lived in California and that sitting upright and neutral was my preference.

[tmsLauraM]

Yes, I've been down some that were probably just a few degrees off of 90*, lol.

I lean back over the hind end for them. :P

[OldSchool]

This pictue was taken in 1917, and while Army regulations requied the rider to be forward in a decent, I think any reasonable person would use the upright positon on a slope of the angle.

*Note the position of the right hand. I am confident that George Morris would have named this the "dock release".