What's the best way to...

[djdapple]

How do you soften a hard mouth? This horse was started by someone (a few years ago) with really heavy hands and I'm going to start riding him in a month or so. I've been warned that he'll just take hold of the snaffle and go. He goes very nicely with a hackamore, so that's an option too, but I'd really prefer to have him relax and quit running away with the bit.

Any suggestions?

Also, he's had an experienced rider working with him for about a year and she's had little luck fixing this issue. She's not hard-handed, and has had no luck with the snaffle. Currently, he's being ridden in a double bridle.

[tapestry]

Hush has a hard mouth, and can get strong at times.

At the walk, I ask softly for the halt through my seat and back, then with the reins. If she doesn't respond, I keep the pressure on (not increasing or decreasing it) until she does respond. Then I make her stay still for a moment, and ask for the walk. Then I try a halt again.

Never increase the pressure you're asking with or the horse will just increase the pressure it's resisting with. If you ask quieter, he'll listen more. Also make sure you're asking for downward transitions through the back, and not just with the head.

[Meegan]

First off, recognize that the horse is not "hard mouthed" but actually is "locked" or braced in the poll. It may have an issue with not knowing how to accept proper contact with the bit, or has learned how to escape and evade pressure that may never have been released correctly. It may also have a phsycial issue as well (could be out and may need chiro work). I would go back to some ground work first and with just a halter and lead, ask the horse to give it's head to the left and right, ask a little at a time and each time you get a response, you release, which is the reward. It's a lot of feel and timing (one book I can refrence is "True Horsemanship Through Feel" by Bill Dorrance (or is it Tom?). Once the horse is comfortable with this and understands you can add your bridle and translate this under saddle with the bit. Work on asking the horse to give when you pick up the rein, and flex properly, not just with the head, but through the poll, neck and whole body as well. This may take some time and a lot of flexing and suppling work. I might also inquire into a trainer who can guide you on the ground and saddle.
Once the horse understands then you need to make sure you ask for proper engagement from the hind end and softly ask for the horse to come up onto the bit and round.

I always try to understand why the horse may be a certain way and then try to find a way to work with it. Always check phsycial problems first. Bigger and heavier, stronger bits are not an answer.

Good luck!!

[Meegan]

P.s.. please check out Cheddar's response in "what happens if he just won't bend" post.. she does an awesome job as usual clarifying issues. That post will be benificial for you to read.

[Monka]

I agree, stronger bits are not the answer, and the double bridle is not the answer either. This horse should NOT be ridden in a double bridle until he has been retrained and the damage that was done to him is repaired. This will probably take a long time to do as he has to learn to trust the rider's hands again. I would start with work in hand. Just ask him to flex, if he gives, release the pressure immediately. And do this until he understands the concept.
When you ride him, don't hold onto the reins with constant pressure but drive him forward and release with your hands so that his hindend has room enough to step under his body. Don't ask him to go in a frame for the first little while, just ignore where his head is positioned. It's imporant to drive him forward and to teach him to develop impulsion. Lots of transitions will help as well (no pulling on the reins in downward transitions!) and use half halts to balance him. As soon as he starts leaning on your hand, drive him forward and give with your hands! He has to learn that you won't offer him a fifth leg with your hands and that he has to carry himself, rather than leaning on the reins. Sometimes, slightly vibrating the reins will help as well.

I would choose the softest bit out there. I am using the KK training bit and my mare loves it. Any harsh bit is only gonna make your problem worse. And remember that this horse is not ready for the double bridle! It is totally defeating its purpose to use it on a horse that was trained like this. Good luck!!!

[tapestry]

I just wanted to point out that horses can be hard-mouthed and it doesn't have to have anything to do with their poll.

When a horse's mouth is damaged, the mouth produces scar tissue. This never goes away. Eventually after more and more scar tissue is created, the horse has a "fleshy" mouth and is literally, hard mouthed. This is what Hush has.

In a lot of instances, hard-mouthed is actually just resistant, but there are times when the horse is literally hard-mouthed.

I also wanted to add that when I say to ask for the halt softly and don't decrease or increase the pressure until the horse stops, you should not have enough pressure in the mouth to get into a pulling match. The instant the horse stops, the instant he is rewarded with a loose rein.

[djdapple]

Thanks for the suggestions, you guys.

Tapestry~ Thanks, I'll try that! I'm going to have the vet come out and give him a good look over, and hopefully identify any mouth trouble, etc.

Meegan~ His problem doesn't seem to be with bending. He bends well on the circle and goes nicely off his hindquarters. I will not really be looking for collection right away as much as just getting him to relax. The problem arises when he decides to be difficult, and will 'grab hold of the bit' (I use that term loosely) and go. I'll check out the 'what happens...' thread though, can't hurt!

I'm just wondering what kind of bit I should try to start with. That's why I was wondering if I should try a hackamore instead of a bit until I get him to loosen up and relax. At least then I know I won't be making things worse.

Only thing is, I've never used a hack before. Any other suggestions?

[Mercedes]

The horse can't take the bit and go with it, unless the rider puts the horse in a position to do it.

[Gem]

Hard hands will create a hard mouth, it's unfortunate that his previous rider was this way. It sounds like he's running away from pressure on his mouth because he's had bad experiences. I would take him back to the basics and teach him to accept contact first...it won't happen overnight. Eventualy he will see that nobody will jab him in the mouth and will yield to pressure on the rein. Simple transitions like halt/walk/halt is where I'd start. As soon as he halts give him release the contact. After he accepts rein pressure and wont run away from your hands you can begin to ask him to stretch into the bit adn seek contact. You basicaly want to keep a conversaion with the horses mouth (the opposite of dull, boring hands).

[Fox]

okay some advice from a western trainer lol
Get on him and ride him in a halter, give him some trust and get some trust make him want to work for you, go into a small pen and just get on and let him cruise around with you on his back I know you might think well heck that is all this guy has been doing is taking people for a ride grabbing the bit but slowly start to follow his head with the lead rope if you know what I mean he is turning to the left so follow his head with your hand then slowly work together until you are steering and he is softly bending his head to your pressure if you pull and he pulls the other way just keep a steady pressure on him until he gives even a little bit then release him and ask again, make giving to pressure a reward all over again, work him in a halter and forgo a hack or bosal both which can be very dangerous if you don't know how to use them I do not recommend you try unless you have an experienced person there to help you. Some horses feel that pressure and it is too much for them.
Anyway work in a halter until you have bonded then move to a light weight modified D ring snaffle.
That is my advice that is what I have done when I have gotten washed up dressage horses that seem to have an old boot for a mouth, they settle down quickly too, western riders can do the same thing so I am not singling out english riders because I am an english rider just not an english trainer really.
okay these are just my opinions of what I would do in your situation.
sherri